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Forum LockedGame diasection taken to a whole, nother, level.

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Brent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Game diasection taken to a whole, nother, level.
    Posted: 07-23-2008 at 10:56am
Prepare to be shocked that it is Bill Abner

Most team sports, strategically, boil down to this: creating and controlling space.

Football. Basketball. Hockey. Soccer--creating and controlling space. So as I discuss the train wreck, the utter ineptness, of NCAA 09, keep the idea of space foremost, because it's critical to understanding why this game is so embarrassingly poor.

Also, as I describe how this game is so totally broken, I'm going to discuss data gathered by watching CPU vs. CPU games. Once I see that something is wrong as I'm playing the game, I'll usually confirm my observation by watching the CPU play itself. Even if I'm playing , over 95% of the players are being controlled by the CPU at any one time.

Here's a core requirement for a sports game: have players run at the correct speed. Not just the correct absolute speed, mind you, but the correct speed in relation to each other. One of the first things I noticed as I started playing NCAA this year was that some players seemed to be running in quicksand--they were so disproportionately slow that it looked ridiculous.

I decided to test what I was seeing, so I went into practice mode and tested how fast various players could run the 40-yard dash, using the streak route (with no defense). In all cases, the players appeared to be sprinting with maximum effort.

The fastest player in the game? A receiver from Florida (Percy Harvin). 98 speed, 99 acceleration. His 40 times? Between 4.6 and 4.7.

That seems a bit, um, slow.

Michael Crabtree of Texas Tech? 94 speed. Five timings. Between 4.7 and 4.8 every time.

Here are more 40 times for different speed ratings.
90 speed: 5.2 to 5.4
85 speed: 5.5 to 5.7
80 speed : 5.9 to 6.2
75 speed: 6.1 to 6.3
70 speed: 6.5 to 6.7

Acceleration will affect those times as well as the speed rating, so I tried to find players with proportional acceleration ratings (for instance, a 90+ speed player with acceleration of 90+ as well).

Here's some context for those numbers:
--roughly 10% of the linebackers have speed above 85
--almost no offensive lineman have speed above 70.
--nine defensive ends have speed above 85
--one defensive tackle has speed above 80

In other words, a bunch of guys look like they're running in quicksand because they ARE running in quicksand. Take a look at real NFL combine 40-yard times times from this year:
QB: 4.55 to 5.03
RB: 4.24 to 4.83
TE:4.53 to 5.04
WR: 4.31 to 4.76
OL: 4.98 to 5.56
DT: 4.88 to 5.49
DE: 4.57 to 5.36
LB: 4.47 to 5.12
DB: 4.31 to 4.80

It's absolutely fair to say that combine times aren't the same as in-game times, because guys run at the combine with track shoes on an artificial surface. The difference shouldn't be nearly half a second, but they're not going to be as fast.

The problem, though, is the gap between fast and slow. The fastest offensive lineman in the combine was .67 slower than the fastest wide receiver. In NCAA 09, that gap is over 2 seconds for over 99% of the lineman. With defensive tackles, it's .57 in the real world, and over 1.2 seconds for almost every player in the game.

Think this doesn't matter? Let's look at how these kinds of sizable inaccuracies affect the game, notably in the area of pursuit.

It's been noted (and I've observed) that playing man-to-man defense in this game is usually a deathwish. It's also been noted (and I've observed this as well, repeatedly) that quarterbacks have insanely high completion percentages (70%+ is common, and I rarely see anyone below 60%, even with the Accuracy slider reduced below the default setting).

Well, speed disparities are why that's happening. A linebacker covering almost anyone is going to be left in the dust (with rare exceptions). The speed gap is so exaggerated that it essentially obsoletes half the defenses in the game.

The CPU will keep calling those defenses, though, and quarterbacks will roast them, which partially accounts for the high completion percentages (the quarterbacks are also psychic this year, but I'll talk about that tomorrow).

Kickoff and punt coverage is hideous this year. Why? Speed disparities. Lineman are slogging downfield so slowly that huge running lanes are opened. There's also a blocking issue, which I'll discuss tomorrow, but speed is a big part of the problem.

Many of the specific bugs I'll discuss tomorrow could, theoretically, be fixed. The problem with speed, though, is a design failure. It's not going to get fixed.

How often will you notice this speed issue? All the time, and particularly on plays where defenders should have an angle on an offensive player, but don't because they're so slow. In the open field, most defenders have absolutely zero chance of ever making a tackle because of the difference in speed. It's done to create more big plays and amp up the offense.

In short: design cheese.

If this was the first year of using a new engine, I could see having some speed issues. Tiburon, though, will have something right, then break it the following year. They seem to be unable to determine what works and what is good versus what is broken.

Tomorrow I'll look at the stunning number of gameplay issues not related to speed--basically, every single aspect of gameplay has major issues, and we'll discuss them using a game between two premiere teams: Florida and LSU.

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Slumberland View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slumberland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 11:10am
That's Bill Harris.  They get confused all the time.  I like his blog a ton.  I think he's got good points, but I'm still enjoying the game this year.  Much less predictable than years past.  It's also a little unfair to stack what would amount to collegiate level 40-yard-dash times to NFL combine times... and probably patently ridiculous to be measuring makeshift 40-yard-dash times in a video game in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 11:42am
LOL  They really are too much alike.

Abners blog

http://nutweasel.blogspot.com/


Nut does not fall to far from the tree.  Just imagine if these two met up to play the game.





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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mike_S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 4:15pm
I respect both of these guys.  They're looking for the perfect game, and usually only start analyzing/complaining about all the minute details when the game is far from perfect.

When we did High Heat, we tried to analyze all of these minute details during development, and it often helped greatly in the final product.  It definitely helped a ton in terms of game believability, which are often what Bill/Bill complain about (before going into their super-hardcore breakdowns).  I doubt that many sports dev teams have that mentality throughout a high percentage of the key developers.

In the end, they are the hardest-of-the-hardcores.  And as these games are made to generate big sales, they have to catering to the casual fan who really likes videogames, not to the super-hardcore guys who are likely to buy the game no matter what due to the license.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote TedSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 5:46pm
I don't read anything either of these guys write anymore and haven't for at least two years.  The reason?  They absolutely suck the life out of gaming to me.  If I read their stuff I invariably put down the controller and think, "why bother."  I stopped reading them and started to really enjoy gaming again.

The sports games we play are better than they have ever been.  They are more accessible and engaging to both the casual and the hard core fan than they have ever been.  But the way these guys break down the minutia you would be convinced that we were going backwards every year.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TedSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Brent

LOL  They really are too much alike.

Abners blog

http://nutweasel.blogspot.com/


Nut does not fall to far from the tree.  Just imagine if these two met up to play the game.






They'd be more likely to meet up to tear down a game.  I'm not sure they play.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Derek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 8:20pm
Well, I enjoy what the two Bills bring to the table.  Sometimes they go off about something I don't care about (player progression--since I usually only play single seasons, or Bill A's doubles down the line obsession--I can see it, but it just doesn't bother me much), but sometimes they are very good at tracking down what is wrong in a game --that I'm already noticing-- and then posting sliders or something that helps to fix it.

I'm not sure why what someone else thinks of a game would affect your enjoyment of the game, Ted, if you are really enjoying it.  Some folks run video 40 yard dashes, some folks worry about the color of someone's sneakers...I do neither, but neither affect my enjoyment of the game. Actually, if you're an 'ignorance is bliss gamer' (and I mean nothing negative by that) and you don't usually see the problems the two Bills mention unless someone calls it to your attention, then I can see why you would avoid their stuff (and a lot of other message boards!) But to me, such breakdowns are often incredibly useful for me to read before I buy I game, as I can read and then decide if what they discovered is actually an issue for me, or if I wouldn't care.  The more information out there the better, I always feel.

In this particular instance, yeah, maybe I wouldn't need to go to that level of detail.  I'd probably just notice that linemen and linebackers weren't fast enough, and leave it at that.  And yes, that would bother me.  But as I've mentioned already, I don't really play football videogames, because to me, NONE of them feel close to real football at all.  Ever. There is almost always something video-gamey you can do to succeed, rather than employing real life tactics, and it drives me crazy. 

I also disagree with Ted's statement about games being the best they've ever been.  In baseball, for instance, I feel that only now are games starting to come close to what Mike's High Heat games were back in the day.  And it's not just nostalgia, as I still go back and play them on the Xbox once in a while.  I think basketball has also been very up and down.

Hockey I think is the best it's ever been.

I guess in summary, I don't go that crazy with game engine analysis, just as I don't obsess about proper stadium signage or sock color.  But who am I to criticize how other people want to play or enjoy the games they bought with their own money?  I pay attention to what I think is important, and ignore everything else, but I'm ultimately glad the stuff is out there so I get to decide what is valuable to me and what is not.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote JasonSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 8:40pm
I'm on the fence here. I appreciate that certain people really push and expect the developers to make the most realistic games possible, but part of me just wants to say "It's only a video game". I'm proud and happy to admit that I'm an "ignorance is bliss gamer" that can overlook (and sometimes not even notice) certain issues with sports video games. As someone that's been in the computer field for over 15 years and done a fair amount of programming, I know that certain things will always be hard to get just right in a game.

I do agree with Ted about the sports games of today being the best ever. High Heat may be one of the few exceptions to that statement, but even it has been surpassed in certain areas with fielding being the most noticeable (Yes, I still have my copy of HH 2004 for the PS2 and will never get rid of it). I'd rate my current sports games on the Xbox 360 (NCAA Football 09, NASCAR 09, NBA Live 08, March Madness 08 and NHL 08) as the best I've played. None of them are close to perfect, but all of them are a lot of fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TedSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Derek



I'm not sure why what someone else thinks of a game would affect your enjoyment of the game, Ted, if you are really enjoying it.  Some folks run video 40 yard dashes, some folks worry about the color of someone's sneakers...I do neither, but neither affect my enjoyment of the game. Actually, if you're an 'ignorance is bliss gamer' (and I mean nothing negative by that) and you don't usually see the problems the two Bills mention unless someone calls it to your attention, then I can see why you would avoid their stuff (and a lot of other message boards!) But to me, such breakdowns are often incredibly useful for me to read before I buy I game, as I can read and then decide if what they discovered is actually an issue for me, or if I wouldn't care.  The more information out there the better, I always feel.


That's one reason why I can't read their stuff anymore.  It draws my attention to things that I never saw and then it starts to bug me.  But the other is that I just think these two guys (but mostly Harris) go looking for what is broken and then write a thesis on it with all their tests and nitpicks.


Originally posted by Derek


I also disagree with Ted's statement about games being the best they've ever been.  In baseball, for instance, I feel that only now are games starting to come close to what Mike's High Heat games were back in the day.  And it's not just nostalgia, as I still go back and play them on the Xbox once in a while.  I think basketball has also been very up and down.

Hockey I think is the best it's ever been.


Since you disagree with me we're not friends anymore.WinkWinkWink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Derek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-23-2008 at 10:33pm
LOL

If there's one thing I'm not worried about with you guys here, it's stating a different opinion and having someone get all worked up about it and taking it personally!

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