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Forum LockedTo slider or not to slider...

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Brent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: To slider or not to slider...
    Posted: 03-09-2006 at 8:41pm
That is the question.

Redundant... yes   Controversial... sure  

Every year WE comes out and reminds me how enjoyable it is to not have to worry about sliders. Sure I think it could use some tweaking in the difficulty but Konami is forcing me to learn the game to be successful at 3* and above. Instead of relying on a crutch (aka slider settings) to somehow cut down on the defensive pressure of the CPU or some other way of making it easier to play 3 or 4*. Or drastically editing them to make 2 star more of a challenge that it is.

I rarely touch sliders and never mess with them until I at least get a season or so in. At that point I only edit things that are really, really bad. Never been a big fan of Slider Gurus who are currently on V 2.845217444B of their attempt to make the "perfect game."  The only thing I find more annoying then Gurus are people who seek out this "perfect game" from the Gurus as if it was the Holy Grail. Like there is a giant mind meld amongst sports gamers and we all need the same darn thing. I play the game how I like it, not how "Poster X" over at (insert any sports gaming forum here ____________ )  thinks the game should be.  Way too many Lemmings on sports gaming sites, not enough cliffs for them to fall off of.


Anyway WE reminds me each year to appreciate the game for what it is. Konami's version of a soccer simulation. No more, no less. I hope they keep this formula through the next generation. I hope others would follow suit. I don't mind the sliders being there if the gameplay is solid from the get-go (CH 2K6 for example) but I hate seeing games like NBA Live that require changes of epic proportions to get the game to play even close to realistic.


Thoughts? Ramblings?

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JasonSGN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JasonSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-09-2006 at 8:59pm

I agree completely. I'm not a big fan of slider adjustments and will make minimal changes at most. I've NEVER used sliders that someone else has published and have only made adjustments that help me enjoy the game more. I'll give you an example, I was terrible at MVP 2005 so I slowed down the pitch speed and raised the contact slider - that's it.

I've become less concerned about sliders because a majority of my gaming is now done online where slider adjustments are not allowed and to be honest, I don't miss the ability to "tweak" the sliders at all.

I think that sliders should be included in games because I have used them as a crutch in certain situations, but I can't stand people that spend more time tweaking sliders than actually playing (and enjoying) the game. Even worse are those that can't wait for and use other people's slider settings. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote TedSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-09-2006 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Jason

I can't stand people that spend more time tweaking sliders than actually playing (and enjoying) the game. 


That was what I did up until around 2 years ago.  Somewhere along the line gaming stopped being fun and it became more important to find that sweet spot where video game statistics mirrored real life statistics.  I got sick of it.   I stopped tweaking sliders and gaming became fun again.

I've been thinking about this off and on for the last two years.  Why don't I care about the game mirroring real life?  Why does it no longer matter to me that what happens within the video game may or may not be what happens on the real field of play?

For me, it comes down to the three legged stool analogy of balance.  All that matters to me in a sports video game is three things.  I listed them in order of importance to me.

1.  Is it an emotional experience?  Do I feel the highs and lows while playing the game?  Prime examples of games nailing this for me are WE, Hitz Pro, NCAA Football 06,  Gallop Racer series, and Fight Night Round 2 and somwhat 3.  Examples of games that fail here for me are NHL 2k series from 04 on, 2k baseball games, Madden Football, and the NBA 2k series.

2.  Is it challenging?  Is there room (difficulty levels) for it to remain challenging as I get better?  Prime example of games nailing this for me are WE, Hitz Pro, NCAA Football 06, MVP Baseball 05 and 06, and Gallop Racer 2004.  Examples of games that fail here for me are Fight Night Round 2, NHL 2k series from 04 on, Gallop racer series until 2004.

3.  Is it balanced and fair?  Can I do the same things that the CPU can do?  Not am I as good as the CPU, but do I have the ability to execute the moves/plays that the CPU is allowed to execute.  No game has nailed this, but some come close like NCAA Football 06, NCAA Baseball 06, and Hitz Pro.  The NHL 2k series has multiple moves pulled by the CPU that you cannot duplicate and in the NBA 2k series it feels like defense doesn't matter and the CPU will nail shots at a predetermined percentage.  Fight Night Round 2 and 3 both give the CPU significant speed advantages on hard difficulty and I dare anyone to execute haymakers as quickly as the CPU even on medium.  The jury is still out for me here on WE because of the speed advantage the CPU is given at 4* and above.  This is the hardest ones for develpers to get right in my opinion, but as long as they get close then the games tend to be great.

I view these games now as their own little universe.  In sort of a Matrix-esque fashion they become their own little world with their own set of physical rules and laws.  Therefore the real world physical laws don't apply anymore.  As long as the CPU obeys the same laws I have to I am satisfied with the statistical results of the game.

About the only thing I try to do anymore is set a period/quarter length that allows me to get the same stats and/or scores that the simmed games generate.  I don't necessarily need to have the same shooting percentage as the simmed games, or the same walks or K's, but it does feel better to me if I see scores that are close to the simmed games and overall yards/batting avg./shots on goal help too.  I like the big stats to be close, but the minutia I let go easily now.  I don't mess with sliders at all now and would not even be tempted to try, for example, to get my 2 walks per game average in MVP 06 to 4.

That was the long way of saying that I think sliders are overrated and it is the one case where the developers should not have listened to the customer and given them everything they want.

Finally,  I think a lot of the problems at sports gaming sites is that many of us sports gamers think we know a sport and all the intricacies that are involved with it, but in all likelihood we are usually talking out our a**.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zeppo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-10-2006 at 1:17pm
I agree fully.  I like that games have sliders, so you can fix big problems if they are there.  But the thing that always gets me about the "Gurus" is that I don't think they have any sense of an appropriate sample size for their statistical analysis.  Sure, in a College  hoops game, if every team shoots consistently in the high 50% range, there may be a problem.  But if you look at real games, it is not unusual to see teams shoot in the high 70% range for an entire half at a time.  Factor in that most gamers play games that are shorter that real games would be in terms of posessions and attempts, etc., and I just can't see why one would start tweaking until even more than a season is in the books.

I do what Brent does, if any adjusting at all: after a full season I may tweak the really bad things.  But these days, I don't really play v. CPU anymore at least once I get the hang of the new game. 

In Madden I get pretty anal about the number of plays, but that's the only stat I really care about mirroring reality.  But I feel like if I can get the number of plays right, then I can start to see how realistic the stats are.  Yes, I would like the games to be as realistic as possible, but fun is the key element, of course.  It does bother me, though, when stuff happens in simmed games, like in Madden 360 where my Portis was leading the league in carries despite not getting many more than 23 or so a game.  Looking through the game stats of the simmed games (awesome feature, btw) I discovered nearly no other runner averaged more than 15 or 16 carries a game.  That ain't right, but you can't fix that with sliders! I don't need it to be ultra-realistic with stats, but I'd expect simmed game stats to be in line with played game stats so that the info has meaning.

The one thing about WE and sliders, though, is that stats are not really a thing.  I think baseball sort of sets the tone as to sliderology, since that game is so heavy with stats, as it should be.  But in soccer. . . ?  What's to slide in the sliders, because what is it you are fixing?  And reading the "WE9 is broken" threads over at OS just makes me realize all the more how impatient and essentially incompetent most guys are.  My WE game has changed and developed so much in the last 4 years; it's not the game that was broken, it was my ability to play it.

Finally, in the end the ultimate slider is a human opponent.  No matter what, you are both playing the same game, whether it's ultra-realistic or not, it's fair.  Now with WE online?  I never knew how many styles there could be.  Everyone plays a little different, and it's just awesome.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-10-2006 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Zeppo



The one thing about WE and sliders, though, is that stats are not really a thing.  I think baseball sort of sets the tone as to sliderology, since that game is so heavy with stats, as it should be.  But in soccer. . . ?  What's to slide in the sliders, because what is it you are fixing?  And reading the "WE9 is broken" threads over at OS just makes me realize all the more how impatient and essentially incompetent most guys are.  My WE game has changed and developed so much in the last 4 years; it's not the game that was broken, it was my ability to play it.


I have spent alot of time at PESfan and PESinsight lately, reading up on strategies, FAQ's to better my game and the guys over the pond are no different. It is definately a worldwide issue that most sports gamers are far to impatient and whine more then any group of gamers.

On a side note:

Sometimes it would be nice to have a "Ref quit being such a pansy and stop calling all these ticky-tack fouls" slider.

I actually had another breakthrough with WE last night and getting more scores. I finally changed from a 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3.  Manchester City is now standing tall in my new ML on good ol 3* (I will bump to 4* after the season). I just had a twisted desire to find success at 3* and slowly but surely I am finidng ways to score.

oh and DOUGHTY is leading the ML in goals!






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