Reminder Wednesday 8/13 is racing at Phoenix
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Printed Date: 04-24-2024 at 7:55am
Topic: Reminder Wednesday 8/13 is racing at Phoenix
Posted By: TedSGN
Subject: Reminder Wednesday 8/13 is racing at Phoenix
Date Posted: 08-12-2008 at 11:17pm
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Practice at 10 pm ET. Qualifying at 10:30. Hope to see you there.
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Replies:
Posted By: JasonSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 6:26am
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Looking forward to it. Are we going to use any CPU cars tonight? ------------- http://profile.mygamercard.net/JasonSGN"> 
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Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:10am
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It's a tight track at 1 mile. I'd like to stay with our current system, but am willing to try. If we go AI should we bump them up to normal? -------------
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Posted By: JasonSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:14am
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Didn't realize it was such a small track - nevermind.
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Posted By: Fazeo
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 12:59pm
| See you guys tonight! |
Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 1:03pm
| Wasn't last week's track only one mile as well? If we have less than 5 humans, I would like to see AI ..... |
Posted By: JasonSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 1:07pm
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Last weeks race was at Texas, which is 1.5 miles. I'm leaning towards always having 8 cars on the track total, so there'd be 2 CPU cars if everyone shows up and 3 if only 5 show up, etc.
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Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:10pm
| Eight cars is cool .... if this week's race is anything like last week's, I would like to see everyone with the same car setup, but that's just me. A racing league (IMHO) should be an extension of true "racing" talent, not "car tweaking" talent. |
Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:19pm
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There's just no way I'm getting rid of allowing custom setups. That being said I wouldn't be against having "several" races on the schedule where we all had to use the same setup. Maybe we can run one "IROC" race each at a short track, a speedway, a super, and a road.' Now, if you didn't want to allow tweaking, what about just using the basic sliders at the front of the setup screen. Do you consider that tweaking? What I'm wondering is do you really just not want to put in any time to setting up a car or running laps in single player? -------------
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Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:29pm
OK, first, don't be so defensive. But, I seem to remember some opposition earlier in the season about performance points, and some of us (yes, me) had to reset our setups to get rid of performance points. But quite frankly, I want to be in a "racing" league, not a "gearhead, I have thirty hours to set up my freaking car to actual NASCAR standards" league. I don't expect to win, but quite frankly, last week sucked big time. Four racers on a big track and I was lapped SEVEN effing times. Normally I wouldn't care, but honestly, riding around in a circle for a full hour and having no chance in hell not to compete really sucks .... especially when I see one of the tweaked cars hitting the friggin wall like a friggin pinball and still falling behind. Yeah, it's a lot of fun for the gearheads who can tweak their car and kick our asses, but for us casual gamers (which I sort of thought SGN was supposed to be supporting), it really sucks. I won't be around tonight. I can enjoy better abuse from my wife than to have to put up with that sh*t. |
Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:31pm
| Edit - When I saw the car in front of me hitting the wall MORE than me, it was ME who still fell far behind. I suck, but I don't suck that bad. I won't race unless there is some kind of equalizer. |
Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:37pm
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For the record I was one of the drivers who reset their performance points to zero. I don't think I was being defensive. I asked a question. If you don't want to spend ANY time working on a setup that's your decision. I don't spend "30 freaking hours setting up my car" and I don't have 30 hours if I wanted to. Last week I ran about 100 laps at Texas and was ready. This week I ran about 100 at Phoenix and I'm ready. Is SGN about casual gaming? Yeah, for the most part. But what SGN also hasn't done in the past is constantly consider changing the rules once a league starts. Personally, I'm getting sick of let's have AI, no let's get rid of AI, no let's bring back the AI. Then it was no performance points, ok their fine now that the game is patched. Now it's setups. Where does it end? Shall we go with no setups tonight? Everyone on veteran? What will you say if you come in last again? From now on no practice before race night? Again, where does it end? -------------
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Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:40pm
OK, cool, but why does setting up the car make for a fair league? |
Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 5:47pm
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Who said anything about fair? You have a fair chance of winning if you put time in. To make an analogy, Brent won the SGN NCAA 08 league and I'm pretty damn sure he put in more hours with NCAA than either Jason or I. I beat Jason in 06 for the same title. I put in way more hours that season than he did because I was retired for 6 months. Was that fair?
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Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 6:01pm
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There is a difference between putting time in, and setting something up
to your advantage! In the NCAA dynasty, we all start with "equal"
teams. You put time in nascar and you have a 4 second per lap
advantage, and take away AI cars because you tire of the yellow
flags. Yeah, it's a lot of fun kicking the crap out of the
competition. In NCAA I would love to take a 90+ team against your
70+ team but you know what, it isn't fair! Then you bitch because
someone wants to have an alternate plan to support those who can't make
it every week. Sorry, I love to play, I want to win, but don't
expect it. But when I play against those who HAVE to win no
matter who it pisses off, then I don't want to play. In my youth, I was a championship racquetball player. Yeah, I loved to win the tournaments against those who were the same level as me, but when I played those below me, I treated it as a learning experience for them, and a growth experience for me. The ONLY way this league would be fair is if everyone was on an even level, setup wise, and then let's see who is the real good racer. |
Posted By: GB_Simo
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 6:57pm
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Grambo,
Having competed against Ted, one way or another, for 5 years and more now, the last thing I've ever saw him to be is a man who wants to win at all costs.
Did someone gear your car to run 135 down the straights and make all the wheels point in different directions? If they did, you've got a case. If they didn't, and your car was something like the default Veteran setup (I assume you weren't running the default Rookie setup, since that has no merit and if you were 7 laps down in that Rick Hendrick wants a word with you), then someone operating near the full potential of the car should be no more than a lap down with a trouble-free run, and on a good day should be hanging onto the lead lap. Default Veteran cars are, almost without exception, good enough to win races against the hardest AI offline.
In other words, if you're 7 laps down, there's no way on Earth setups are making that difference, and you already are seeing who the real good racers are.
Ted's 100 laps of setup time must equate to, what, just over an hour? It's not an amount of time most would consider unmanageable, nor is it a show of slavish dedication on Ted's part.
Edit: Might I ask a question? Let's assume for a second that the last race was to be run again, with equalisers, a completely level playing field. What kind of a difference would you expect to see? No agenda, no hidden motives, just genuine curiosity prompts me to ask.
Edit the second: Just read Ted's post below mine. If you have managed to accidentally race the Rookie car, not only does that explain everything but it's a fine race you've driven (though it'd be obvious if it was the Rookie car - it'd have been pushing like a school bus, chewing tyres as it went). If you did load Veteran, then sorry, but Ted's right.
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Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 6:58pm
Let me be absolutely clear on this. This is not going to happen. Grambo, if we knew each other a little longer I think you would realize I am in no way a cut throat competitor. I've learned from my friend, Brent, that sometimes we don't come across well on the forums. If you have the idea that I'm in this to win at all costs you are very mistaken. I misspoke when I implied the league wasn't fair. It is completely fair. It was fair the moment we all opened the Nascar package. As long as you have access to information about cars (internet) you have the same access to the information that I have used to setup my races. I'm not exploiting any glitches or bugs. Because I choose to spend some of my time learning about what camber and caster do instead of fishing for crab I probably have an advantage over you. That doesn't mean it isn't fair. And I'm not suggesting for you to not play other games. You do what is fun for you. Do you think I run offline and tweak because I have to win? I do it because it is fun and relaxing to turn laps. Makes me a weirdo I know. I don't have a 4 second per lap advantage. Most of the time my car is 1 second better than what I can run on veteran AND more stable and able to run multiple grooves. I did not ask to take the AI away as you stated. I believe that was asked for by Fazeo and Jason and I was willing to go along for a 3 race test. Since we experienced a better race without the AI we decided to keep it that way. I did not "bitch" when Jason asked for an alternate scoring system using an average instead of total points. I stated I was against it and why and other members also said they were not for it. What seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back is your finish at Texas, 6 laps off the lead. I had a tweaked setup. I think Fazeo had a tweaked setup. I think Jason ran on Veteran. I'm assuming you ran on veteran. How does Jason finish on the lead lap with a stock setup. How does Fazeo finish a lap down with a tweaked one? How do you and Jason finish 6 laps apart with the same setup? Is there any chance, any chance at all, that since we had to restart the race you may have just been on the rookie setup? Just to reiterate, we took away performance points the first time because there was an exploit (the superspeedway engine bug). We took away AI because we were constantly running under yellow which isn't racing and was very dull and the AI were causing problems on restarts and when they go to pit (they stay out in traffic and slow to 55 while still on the track and turn into the pits late). We are not taking away custom setups because they are not an exploit and are not causing the races to be uncompetitive, despite what you say. I would hate to see anyone leave the league. The more the merrier I say. However, if you want to take your car and go home because you aren't having fun it is your prerogative. If you are doing it to make a statement about fairness it won't change anything. Jason has given me responsibilities to run the leagues as I see fit. If he wants to change that it is his right. It's his site. Barring that I'm sticking fast on this. -------------
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Posted By: JasonSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 7:15pm
First things first - no more analogies of me losing to ANYONE in championship games from now on   .I think you both have valid points and was hoping we could resolve this smoothly. I think one of the reasons we've gone back and forth on the rule changes is because racing with 6 guys and up to 8 CPU cars on a different track each week involves many more variables than most one-on-one games and we all agreed on experimenting a bit. Originally, we had discussed using CPU cars on the larger tracks and eliminating them on the smaller ones. I think there's enough "traffic" on the smaller tracks with just us, but I did think the Texas track was a bit "empty" last week too - it didn't help that there were only four us too (and I messed up the wear factor). I personally don't care about the final points. I look at each race individually and try to win the race I'm in that week. I only recommended the average points because I didn't want guys that missed a few races to lose interest and drop out of the league. I realize that we're all adults and there are more important things in life and don't want to fault anyone for missing a race - sh*t happens. I'm glad that the Performance Points have been negated online and felt bad that some of you deleted your profiles to reset them to zero (although you would have probably lost them with the "profile freeze" glitch anyway ). I had no desire to earn PP's offline, but wanted to remain competitive on the track.Finally, we get to the setups and I'm not sure what to say. I had originally voted against setups and then changed my mind. I'm one of the guys that has NOT tweaked my car before any race but felt competitive using the default Legend setup. I can certainly understand that many of us don't have the time, patience or know-how to tweak their car (especially me), but on the other hand, should someone be penalized because they do? I'm in this to have fun and hope we can all agree on something without anyone feeling like they got cheated. I'm not taking sides but just wanted to air my opinion. ------------- http://profile.mygamercard.net/JasonSGN">
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Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 7:20pm
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That's another point I forgot to mention. Grambo, your car will be faster if you turn off all the assists. Derek's experience before and after doing so was like night and day. To have the fastest possible car you should be running pro style, legend difficulty (no assists), and veteran or tweaked setup. -------------
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Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 7:53pm
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All I know is, the rules changed several races in. At first, we
had AI. Certain people didn't like it, and it was suddenly
eliminated. This league, I'm afraid to say, hasn't been on the up
and up. I have heard other things while racing which made me feel
this way. I like SGN, and so far most of it has been fair, but
this league is definitely out of whack. I'm sorry if you
disagree, but I have played many racers over the years to see what is
fair, and what is not fair, and from what I have seen and heard, I do
not like the inequity. |
Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:14pm
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Weird tonight. Ok, there are three options. 1. It was a rain out. We run Phoenix again next week. 2. It was a rain out. We skip Phoenix and move forward in the schedule. 3. We accept the finish order in the email EA sent me which is Fazeo, Web, Kevin, Ted, Jason. It shows Kevin DNF, but also above me and Jason which it lists as 4 and 5 so Kevin had 3rd. -------------
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Posted By: Derek
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:15pm
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Not much to say for that race other than Argh! :( I enjoyed that track, though, so I'd be up for a replay there. Grambo, if you are using any assists at all, you should really consider ditching them. Nothing has made more difference for me, PPs and tweaked setups included! I don't believe you need to spend much time at all on setups, though. Tonight, for instance, was the first time I put any laps in at all at Phoenix, and I only hit the track at ten minutes to 10. In that time I ran maybe a dozen laps, and made some very basic tweaks to the setup slider bars. (I think I moved a total of three notches combined.) I qualified first, and was running some really quick laps. You certainly don't need to put in much time, and my setups tweaks usually only give me time differences of right around a second. Anyway, I hope you stay involved. I really don't think anyone here NEEDS to win, and I really don't think it's as hardcore as you think it is. |
Posted By: Derek
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:16pm
| Did the email send you points, Ted? |
Posted By: JasonSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:23pm
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I wouldn't mind running it again next week - Phoenix was much more fun than I expected it to be.
------------- http://profile.mygamercard.net/JasonSGN">
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Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-13-2008 at 10:50pm
It does not, but it does show laps completed and laps led. We could easily construct the points. I'm glad you pointed out that you are tweaking with the slider bars. When we qualified I had my fastest lap ever at Phoenix at 28.808 and you still out did me with that 28.7xx. Goes to show how easy setting up the cars can be. I only get into the detail setup because I find it fascinating. -------------
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Posted By: K_Mosley
Date Posted: 08-14-2008 at 7:35am
I WANT TO KEEP THE RESULTS! I MAY NEVER SEE 3RD AGAIN, NO MATTER HOW IT HAPPENED!
 You guys know me - I don't care whatever you decide. I'm just in this for the fun. I'd better be, since I'm ALWAYS the worst driver out there!
Kevin ------------- http://www.middleagedgamer.com - MiddleAgedGamer.com |
Posted By: GB_Simo
Date Posted: 08-14-2008 at 1:44pm
| 3rd and 4th for my team? Missed the finishing order - too busy putting my umbrella up. No? Worth a try. |
Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-14-2008 at 4:14pm
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If Grambo wants to return to the league I'm happy to have us rerun Phoenix on 8/20. If he doesn't then I would like to create the points for last nights finish and consider it a kind of "race called after 50 laps due to rain." Grambo, what say you? -------------
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Posted By: Derek
Date Posted: 08-14-2008 at 6:16pm
| Sounds like a good idea, Ted. I'll enjoy racing again, or actually get a 'glitch points' night that doesn't place me last! :) |
Posted By: Grambo Bastille
Date Posted: 08-14-2008 at 6:45pm
The essence of this post is why I am pissed off. First, "it's not going to happen" ..... nice attitude. For the record, you WERE four seconds ahead of me, and guess what, I had a tweaked car as well. I reiterate that when I joined this league, I thought it was about "racing", not spending hours in the shop setting all frickin' parameters. Also when I joined, we had AI cars, and that was a drawing point for me - having a nice experience closing matching a real NASCAR race, not a frickin' 4-6 car Mario Kart experience. You don't want to bend and be open minded? Then I won't either. |
Posted By: TedSGN
Date Posted: 08-14-2008 at 7:22pm
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I guess that means we won't rerun Phoenix. I'll create the points and we'll move to Talladega next for 8/20.
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